Arduino.org

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I believe it's very well understood that labeling a clone "Arduino", so it appears to the buyer as if their money is going to support the Arduino project, is considered a counterfeit. Despite the fact that clones not deceptively labeled as "Arduino" are allowed, plenty of Chinese manufacturers have indeed made and sold counterfeits. Plenty of people have purchased those counterfeits through resellers on sites like Amazon, at prices similar to Arduino's, believing they were helping to support the official Arduino project.

At least I thought this was well understoond. Maybe not?
 
Is there any news on this matter? There is now a pop up in the .CC IDE when you plug in a device with a Dog Hunter VID which says the product is unsupported.

http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Buy

How many of those listed distributors have actually got accounts with .CC? I'm pretty sure Mouser use Gheo, RS definitely use Gheo..... Is dropping support for arduino boards supplied by global vendors like that shooting themselves in the foot overall? Surely first, one should setup an alternative route to market?

So basically, as far as I can see, .CC is dropping support for 90% of the supply chain of Arduino's, without offering a credible alternative to those vendors. That could destroy the Arduino hardware brand forever.


If you read through this github thread, the arduino universe is making it's choice. Massimo Banzi also commented somewhere in the thread too, as does David Cuartielles.
https://github.com/arduino-org/Arduino/issues/2
 
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I saw that as good news - then saw that ... bummer ... Genuino.com taken by a fast food place (Italian?). Though GoDaddy is offering to sell the Genuino.cc, seems like somebody should have gotten that by now.

.cc domain suffix is the top-level domain (TLD) for the [Australian territory] Cocos Islands. However, it is commonly used as an alternative to the ".com" suffix for commercial Web sites.
 
Strange, cause I thought I remember hearing that the Arduino team didn't like all the "duino" names, cause it didn't make any sense in Italian.
 
Seems pretty silly to try to start a new branding name push without making sure that whatever name you picked had domains available that you could own.
I'd want to own at least .com, and .org of my brand name.
 
This morning I noticed that the arduino.org WEB site no longer lists the "arduino zero pro" product but instead has two new products -- "arduino m0" and "arduino m0 pro". The pictures and descriptions are very similar to the pictures of the old "arduino zero pro" but the picture of the "arduino m0 pro" lacks one of the electrolytics that the picture of the "arduino zero pro" had.

Could this mean that they are planning to do "arduino m3" and "arduino m7" products, and will they have software libraries to support the DSP and floating-point features of these chips?
 
This morning I noticed that the arduino.org WEB site no longer lists the "arduino zero pro" product but instead has two new products -- "arduino m0" and "arduino m0 pro". The pictures and descriptions are very similar to the pictures of the old "arduino zero pro" but the picture of the "arduino m0 pro" lacks one of the electrolytics that the picture of the "arduino zero pro" had.

Could this mean that they are planning to do "arduino m3" and "arduino m7" products, and will they have software libraries to support the DSP and floating-point features of these chips?


"must" they use Atmel ARM?
 
Could this mean that they are planning to do "arduino m3" and "arduino m7" products,

Maybe. Except for the Atheros chip, they seem to only copy Arduino LLC's designs. Maybe a "m3" product would be a copy of Arduino Due?

None of them seem to have anything planned for Cortex-M7.

and will they have software libraries to support the DSP and floating-point features of these chips?

Maybe you're thinking of Cortex-M4, regarding the DSP feature? I'd say there's a pretty good library already written! :)

My understanding for the floating point is it's simply a matter of a couple different compiler flags, and using a newer version of the toolchain.
 
First of all, we changed the name to the Arduino Zero Pro, calling it Arduino M0 Pro (so the new code is A000111).
The change of the naming was necessary in order to put some order in the ARM based line, in order to best follow the new trends.

At the same time, we made the simple version of it, Arduino M0 (A000103), all the power of the Atmel he 32-bit ARM® Cortex® M0+ processor, without the Debug chip.

Here you go, this applies to arduino.org products only

Mess though this situation is, I hope in the future both organisations will be able to develop complementary products rather than competitive.
 
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They actually changed the name because the real Arduino registered "Zero" as a trademark.

I like how they say "was necessary in order to put some order in the ARM based line". ;)
 
I saw that as good news - then saw that ... bummer ... Genuino.com taken by a fast food place (Italian?). Though GoDaddy is offering to sell the Genuino.cc, seems like somebody should have gotten that by now.

Someone has got it now, thats for sure:
Registrant Name: Registration Private
Registrant Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Registrant Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Registrant Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Registrant City: Scottsdale
Registrant State/Province: Arizona
Registrant Postal Code: 85260
Registrant Country: United States
Registrant Phone: +1.4806242599
Registrant Phone Ext:
Registrant Fax: +1.4806242598
Registrant Fax Ext:
Registrant Email: GENUINO.CC@domainsbyproxy.com
 
Still routes to : This Web page is parked FREE, courtesy of GoDaddy.

For $70 plus commission GoDaddy will negotiate with the holder to get the domain:
If the domain name you want is already registered by someone else, you can use our professional Domain Buy Service with your personal Domain Buy Agent to attempt to acquire it for you. Domain Buy Agents make every reasonable attempt to contact the current domain name registrant to try to negotiate its purchase.

In addition to the Domain Buy Service fee, there is a 20% Buyer Broker fee ($15 minimum fee).
 
In my experience, this domain is likely to have been Auto-purchased because of the Whois searches. They will want at least £1000 for the domain.
 
I'm a little bemused they announced a new brand without first

1) securing the trademarks internationally
2) securing the related domains

We know they have not done 2), I certainly hope they have done 1)
 
Yes, that does seem pretty sloppy.

... and unfortunately, could be par for the course given their history with the 'other' Arduino trademark.

I hope the uncovered information is merely the result of a non-current WHOIS/GoDaddy database vs. a pattern of repeat genuine incompetence re: securing trademarks.
 
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While they didn't say this explicitly, I believe the "Genuino" name is intended as a workaround for the distributors who's signed the Smart Projects contract with a steep financial penalty for selling any board marked "Arduino" from another company.

Still, it seems pretty sloppy not to register the domain name on popular TLDs before going public with the name. It's so cheap and easy to do early.

I've heard others speculate "Genuino" may also be damage control for the possibility they lose the trademark battle. But I'm pretty sure they will eventually win in the end, everywhere, as long as they don't run out of money. With Adafruit now making boards for USA market, they'll probably have most of their former revenue stream back.
 
But I'm pretty sure they will eventually win in the end, everywhere, as long as they don't run out of money.
"Win" what?

I'm not so sure on the outcome.

I'm guessing it will be a mixed bag given how sloppily things were handled.
Particularly given the "handshake" agreements that were in effect, the multiple jurisdictions involved, the sloppiness of how and when the trademarks were filed vs when they were used, and then what the filings say they cover.
i.e. I think both sides were and are over the line with some their trademark claims particularly since in some in cases trademark claims were being made before there was any filing.

So I think both llc and org will win a few of their desired legal claims and loose a few but there is no true single "winner".

As one example on the "Arduino" tradmark, keep in mind that the original llc "ARDUINO" word mark was not only allowed to originally die after its public comment period by not following through with some paper work (it was later revived),
but it also was filed only for use with Goods and Services but only for " ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT BOARDS"
So the word mark that was eventually granted to llc does not cover using the word "ARDUINO" for anything else like software, etc...

The "Infinity" logo with "ARDUINO" below it filed later, was a better filing in that it is much broader and covers it use on s/w:
"Computer hardware; computer programs for developing, debugging and testing software for microcontroller programming; computer hardware subassemblies for assembling custom electrical and electronic devices; Microcontrollers and microcontroller modules."

--- bill
 
Quick update on the doghunter vid warning issue:

Here is an explanation of the arduino.org VID warning on the arduino.cc IDE 1.6.1

http://tutorial.cytron.com.my/2015/03/13/arduino-board-uncertified-manufacturer/

And here is massimo banzi explaining how they have now removed the warning:
http://blog.arduino.cc/2015/04/28/opening-up-the-arduino-ide/comment-page-1/#comment-274798

We also decided to get rid of the popup notifying users they were using a non-certified board. Our issues with a specific manufacturer are now well known in the community that the popup just got in the way our desire to be more open and making life simpler for people. This change is already active in the current Arduino IDE.


And well done there, mr Banzi, as it would serve only to fragment the community further, and also european sellers who just bought thousands of arduino.org boards (with no other source available to them) would be more inclined to link to the arduino.org IDE which does not kick up the warning to its customers. These things need to be better thought through.

I do sympathise with arduino.cc, it seems a collection of true engineers (arduino.cc) with a massive passion for the community are being screwed over by more shrewd commercial minds - they don't seem sure quite how to deal with it.

I agree with bperrybap, I think the issue will fall in the middle, neither side will win and they will have to find a way to coexist in the market, hence my previous comment:

I hope in the future both organisations will be able to develop complementary products rather than competitive.
 
I do sympathise with arduino.cc, it seems a collection of true engineers (arduino.cc) with a massive passion for the community are being screwed over by more shrewd commercial minds - they don't seem sure quite how to deal with it.

Allow me to disagree with a stark example: There is a world of difference re: enthusiasm for the product and the community between Arduino.cc and PJRC.com. When was the last time that a demi-god from the C-suite at Arduino.cc regularly participated in the forums? I found it hilarious that the one time Massimo Banzi appeared in the forums was to chastise me for mentioning Teensy as a viable alternative to Due. As if not mentioning Teensy was going to change the fact that the Due was a dog of a product, released haphazardly after Teensy forced Arduino's hand.

My impression is that Arduino.cc is largely filled with people who are mostly insulated from the masses that use the product, which is an ongoing issue. User feedback re: issues has always been slow to get addressed to the organization, unlike the way it does here. When we find a bug, Paul usually addresses it in days. Heck, he's fixed a whole bunch of bugs for Arduino too.

Quite simply, would not have this discussion if the Arduino team actually focused on its product. Instead, they have largely coasted on on their own coat tails for several years after making it big. Paul states that there are many changes afoot that are for the good of the organization. I hope that trend continues because if Arduino.cc can keep accelerating away from Arduino.org then the latter will simply shrivel up and go away.

But, an organization with a laser focus on success would do things differently. It would not allow the current Arduino IDE with its bevy of issues to fester as long as it has. Customers must have a compelling reason to use your products - Paul has released more products per capita at PJRC.com than Arduino, provides amazing tech support, and does a lot of software development too (both for Teensy and the greater Arduino community).

Paul has stated over and over that he doesn't see himself as a competitor to Arduino... and I agree... to a point. I'd make the argument that Arduino.cc traditionally made little to no effort to compete in the first place. The forums are run by volunteers, most important board / library innovations come from the outside, and product development has been slow for an organization its size. I don't think I'd call the Arduino organization competitive, it's behavior is reminiscent of a lifestyle business.

That said, they continue to be successful because their initial product is a great platform for learning the basics of MCU programming and so on. I wish them the best of success, especially now that they seem to be signing up so many commercial partners that library support for all these platforms is going to become a major issue. The glimpses that Massimo gave the crowds at the Maker Faire certainly seemed to be a step in the right direction and I hope that they manage to change quickly enough to keep up with all these additions. The old Arduino.cc organization certainly could not.

Imagine how frustrating it must be for a number of their competitors to enter the market and not find the success they were hoping for, on the basis that the above mismanagement on the part of Arduino would be sufficient to allow a 'better' organization to walk away with the market. Digilent, Maple, etc. have all tried... and failed.
 
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Allow me to disagree with a stark example

Fair enough :)

Perhaps i overstated the "massive passion", passion is emotional and dedicational.

I did not wish to draw comparisons with PJRC, we all know Paul (& Robin!) does this fantastic job for the love more than the money, it shows in every product release, and every forum response. Perhaps we should define that as "massive passion".

So its possible that, allowing the commercial arm to invest in the Arduino movement might not be the end of the world? Perhaps it would invigorate the team if it wasn't being done in such a brutal manner.

It sounds like the status quo needed shaking up! This could be the best thing for Arduino in the long term.......once the dust has settled.


I dont want arduino.org to shrivel up and die. I want them to invest in the business of "Arduino" and help propel it forward. and drop the whole "We are arduino. But you are Arduino" thing, re brand their re-brand if you will. Good quality products and contribution to the community would sell itself.



My day job is KNX - an open standard for building controls. There are hundreds of manufacturers who all build compatible certified, tested KNX products and they all contribute their annual fees to the organisation, and a small cost is levied per KNX interface chip.

It's 25 years old this year and still growing. It's a great example of how open standards can be successful. The arduino team certainly have missed a trick.....maybe this is the boot they needed to catch up.
 
Thanks Constantin, for the kind words. You do have some very good points. But I don't believe Teensy forced Arduino's hand on Due. They had been working on it for quite some time, as had I on Teensy 3.0. Both took much longer than either of us expected. I believe the timing of our two releases worked out to be more coincidence than anything else.

In the earliest days, Massimo & David travelled around Europe doing workshops with Arduino boards. That very direct hands-on involvement with real end users, I believe, was the key to their early success. It is easy to get the impression they're not so closely connected with end users now.


I dont want arduino.org to shrivel up and die.

I want to see them go down in flames in court... both the legal courts and the court of public opinion. Not shrivel up, not fade away quietly, but lose dramatically.

Really, what I want to see, which is looking less and less likely, is the people behind this exposed and their names (eg, anything searched on Google & Bing) forever associated with a stigma of the horribly unethical things they've done. But it seems Federico Musto and perhaps others I don't know, are likely to escape a fate like Darl McBride, who's never going to be forgotten as the man who tried to steal Linux.

Every lawyer I've ever talked with has said even the strongest court cases are unpredictable. Indeed Bill pointed out a lot of flaws that could cause this to go either way. Still, my optimistic and perhaps naive hope is their many unethical moves will weigh on the court's opinion.
 
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