The battle between Teensy 3 vs MBED Freescale Freedom - who will win?

[stevech]

Eclipse. funny how you admire it. I had to use it on a prior project and I loathed it - because it diverted way too much of my time to the tool, not the app. I just don't have the time or contract funding to make career investment in Eclipse learning. No money, no time. But that's just opinion. I have used IAR for years doing ARM7 work. It was fast to learn. Like it should be. IAR knows their tool has to be intuitive or people won't pay for it.

There are two threads here on attempts at a T3 plugin for Eclipse. I tried the short one. Wasted an evening on that. The other one here had like 100 steps to follow. Valiant effort but shouldn't be needed.

I'd like to see emIDE or emBlocks (with GCC/G++) adapted for the T3. I gave it several evenings' work. But failed - likely because there's no K20 template to use for CPU setup. I tried to adapt one from the K40 and I'm too much a novice to change that which assumes 8MHz and no PLL, different divider settings, etc. I'm very close but ran out of patience. These do have the issue that there's no equivalent to a makefile's two command lines, one for C and one for C++. Other than having a command line per C++ to override C, I don't see an easy way 'round this, but I'm not the x-spurt.

The FRDM-KL25Z examples seem to be hard-coded for CodeWarrior which is to be avoided.

 

[chrylis]

As I mentioned, I use Eclipse for Java development, which is about as far away from MCU programming as you can get! In that case, the learning curve is hugely repaid in keeping plates in the air, but for a relatively simple embedded project, most of what I'd like is library management, build management, and autocompletion. Arduino does library and simple build just fine, but it seems to get out of control in a hurry if you're building a complex program. emIDE looks promising, but for some reason they've made it Windows-only, even though Code::Blocks is cross-platform.

It'll be very interesting to see whether CMSIS delivers on what ARM is hoping. They clearly recognize that the wildly disparate configurations of ARM chips are a headache for developers and toolmakers, but it seems that that's a feature, not a bug, for tool vendors.

 

[PaulStoffregen]

Arduino does library and simple build just fine, but it seems to get out of control in a hurry if you're building a complex program.

Can you give me an example?

 

[chrylis]

Can you give me an example?

The IDE editor component doesn't cleanly handle multiple files. It doesn't have autocompletion or tooltip hints, its syntax highlighting is a per-line macro instead of context-sensitive (try failing to close a quoted string), and it doesn't do code folding or keyword linking (clicking on a function name to go to its definition or prototype).

 

[stevech]

The IDE editor component doesn't cleanly handle multiple files. It doesn't have autocompletion or tooltip hints, its syntax highlighting is a per-line macro instead of context-sensitive (try failing to close a quoted string), and it doesn't do code folding or keyword linking (clicking on a function name to go to its definition or prototype).

Keyword linking is my big loss, being accustomed to such in other tools.
I'd even go with (bloated) Eclipse if it were tested and took no more than a half-hour to get running. As is, it is a term project for Arduino.

Here's an example of the lack of modular programming with the Arduino IDE - I guess because code in all "tabs" is concatenated into a single compilation file.
Tab 1 and tab 2 in the IDE declare a static variable with the same name, e.g., "static char buffer[1]"

 

[Derangedgamer123]

I would love to see a clear path that explains programming in C with the Teensy. If that video where to be made or if that online tutorial where to be made for those that might not have every programmed in C and have only really used some IDE like arduino this would be a blessing. I for one love the NewbieHack tutorials on AVR. And this is FAR FROM a damming statement too teensy 3.0 its freaking AMAZING I love this tool and I feel bad to ask for support to make the progress of what this team has developed I am just interested in using the raw dev board that the Teensy is on with just C language compiled into a HEX format that is loaded with teensyuploading tool.

 

[PaulStoffregen]

I would love to see a clear path that explains programming in C with the Teensy.

I'm planning to do something like this. It's a much lower priority than a number of other things (fixing the Mac bug is at the top of my list right now).

Long-term, I'm going to reorganize the Teensy2 stuff in the same scheme as Teensy3 uses, and then create 2 sets of downloads from the same files, one for Arduino and one for C/C++ usage.

 

[Derangedgamer123]

That would enable a classroom to learn embedded systems C programming with your product. I would be so great full but in all honestly I am great full for what has been developed thus far!

 

[PaulStoffregen]

You do realize that Arduino is really just C++ with some simpler libraries, right? It even supports using an external editor.

Then again, the feature-poor IDE and colors scream "hobbyist" which I guess doesn't sound like "embedded systems"?

 

[Derangedgamer123]

If I where to go into industry I wouldn't imagine that I would be dealing with Nicely Built Library's and IDE's that are as simple on the eyes.... The winavr feel seems like the tract that would be something that would be taught in an Embedded Systems course. I might just be way off here but there is a HUGE difference from the VHDL programming courses I had take using xilinx and the weak presence of C programming tough in our department.

You see weird end design projects of FPGA's that are what would be used in industry next to arduino projects.... I must be crazy but if I was an employer I would think that's a cool toy and only because of the IDE used. (That and the super extensive library utilized to achieve their design).

In other words I need to learn this makefile business and see if there is a way to compile code in a C compiler to use the teensyduino to load the .hex.... (Please correct me if im wrong)

I will leave on this note Paul you are a freaking rockstar in my eyes thank you for all you do!

 

[PaulStoffregen]

In other words I need to learn this makefile business and see if there is a way to compile code in a C compiler to use the teensyduino to load the .hex.... (Please correct me if im wrong)

Teensy3 actually has this now. But it's inside the Arduino directory after you run the Teensyduino installer. Just look for the makefile in hardware/teensy/cores/teensy3. It has comments to help you get started, and to help you deleted the rest of Arduino if you only want to build from the makefile.

Eventually there will be 2 versions to download... the Teensyduino installer and a smaller download with just the makefile and other stuff it requires, but not anything "Arduino".

 

[stevech]

Makefiles - I'd recommend not going that route. With today's nice IDEs such as Eclipse for Arduino too, one can avoid the brain-braking obtuse syntax of Makefiles. Concentrate on the project organization. I used makefiles decades ago - before there were nice IDEs with good tools. Good IDEs essentially generate a make file - because they know when you add/remove C/C++ files and .h files, and they keep track of which source files need to be recompiled because they are younger than the last time their corresponding object (.o) file was updated. It's automated with a good IDE, whereas with makefiles you have to follow that syntax (ouch) in the makefiles and edit the make file as you add/remove/rename .c, .cpp, .h and other files. The main thing I get from an IDE is an instantaneous jump around the modules as you look at an existing piece of code, then jump back to where you were. And pop-up tips on the params for a function you are about to use. Right-click on a symbol and you can do: where is it defined? Where all is it used? What type is it? Where is the type definition? And so much more.

 

[AverageGuy]

I
btw: show me any other $19 product where you get the level of FREE support and dedication you get with T3. I have certainly never seen anything like it.

That's why, even though I don't have a need for one yet, I ordered a T3 yesterday. Be sure to support they guy who supports you!

Jim.

 

[Derangedgamer123]

Teensy3 actually has this now. But it's inside the Arduino directory after you run the Teensyduino installer. Just look for the makefile in hardware/teensy/cores/teensy3. It has comments to help you get started, and to help you deleted the rest of Arduino if you only want to build from the makefile.

Eventually there will be 2 versions to download... the Teensyduino installer and a smaller download with just the makefile and other stuff it requires, but not anything "Arduino".

This is awesome Paul I just want to say that this is an amazing platform and that beyond that the support is just amazing!!!
-- Anything that I'm asking for is just me being needed as you have literally everything (mostly) of what people would want.....
I guess I would just love to see a small tutorial of someone using this NON-ARDUINO path and do some basic code like a hello world "blink" and perhaps access some of the (what do you say) "special registers" so those of us that grew up with Arduino and haven't gotten a chance to see the real language underneath the hood have a chance at accessing this. This type of documentation could also pave the way for a book to be created on embedded c for a classroom environment

 

[dbridges]

This is awesome Paul I just want to say that this is an amazing platform and that beyond that the support is just amazing!!!
-- Anything that I'm asking for is just me being needed as you have literally everything (mostly) of what people would want.....
I guess I would just love to see a small tutorial of someone using this NON-ARDUINO path and do some basic code like a hello world "blink" and perhaps access some of the (what do you say) "special registers" so those of us that grew up with Arduino and haven't gotten a chance to see the real language underneath the hood have a chance at accessing this. This type of documentation could also pave the way for a book to be created on embedded c for a classroom environment

I second this. I'm finding the ARM world quite a bit harder to get started in than the AVR world in terms of programming without the Arduino ecosystem.

 

[chrylis]

I second this. I'm finding the ARM world quite a bit harder to get started in than the AVR world in terms of programming without the Arduino ecosystem.

Hear, hear! It's clearly possible to use the regular toolchain to compile for ARM, since Arduino does it, but I have no idea where to start. The AVR plugin for Eclipse handles the AVR-specific tasks like building images, and I'm thoroughly stumped with where to start for ARM.

 

[PaulStoffregen]

Maybe Jantee's Eclipse plugin? Or the sample makefile in hardware/teensy/cores/teensy3 if you can work on the command line with make?