Arduino.org

Status
Not open for further replies.
A Fascinating read. Exactly as I suspected, it appears to be six of one, and half a dozen of another.

To simply cut off all business comms for an operating company without warning is a brutal gesture. And then for the market to vilify the team for starting their own site to continue their business and livelihood?


As far as I can see it, LLC were basically trying to pull the rug out from under SRL, and SRL were defending their business by any means necessary.

Both parties did some really bad stuff, both parties have been instrumental in the success of Arduino.

It looks like SRL are going to win in Europe. So it's Arduino, and Genuino, and they both seem to have different approaches to the market and new products.

If we can just get them to merge their IDE's again, this would be a mitigating solution to what is a proper mess.


But I do like the idea of the Arduino Foundation. I do wonder though, is this foundation a response to poor sales due to the market backlash against SRL? The forums are pretty dead there, there has been very poor takeup of the .org brand. So is this their "last resort" solution if it doesn't work? Or have they simply killed the Arduino brand entirely?
 
To simply cut off all business comms for an operating company without warning is a brutal gesture.

While the HaD guys did call out Martino for secretly registering the trademark, they didn't mention they well established fact that Martino/Musto had cut off all royalty payments long before Arduino LLC retaliated. Turning off someone's email service over a mere disagreement is one thing, but this came after nearly a year of non-payment! Most ISPs will turn off or disconnect servers after several weeks of failure to pay for the service. Likewise for telephones, power, water, gas, etc.

I just don't buy Musto's story that he's been victimized. I know the HaD article is about Musto's side of the story. Musto's version doesn't involve any mention unilaterally changing the royalty arrangement, which had been printed on the packaging material of every Arduino board SRL made until late 2014.


Both parties did some really bad stuff, both parties have been instrumental in the success of Arduino.

The unsupported board message is probably the most controversial thing Arduino LLC has done. Ethically, in the context of millions of people still buying Arduino brand boards, believing their money was supporting further development of the platform by Arduino.cc, I think it was fairly justified. Legally, it probably had all sorts of issues.

I really do not see how Arduino LLC has done "really bad stuff". They've certainly been out-maneuvered legally and maybe even financially, at least initially. Musto is clearly very good at this game.


If we can just get them to merge their IDE's again, this would be a mitigating solution to what is a proper mess.

There truly isn't much to merge. Arduino SRL has done very little software development since forking 1.6.1. Most of their github commits have involved re-importing an old version of the Zero core library, developed by Arduino LLC (and Atmel... actually Atmel did quite a bit of the work), and of course changing the names and URLs and ID numbers in many places. They've now fixed a few bugs in the Zero core, but only after Arduino LLC released their core with those old problems fixed.

Recently Arduino SRL published ArduinoStudio. There too, they've done very little real work. It's basically just a fork of Adobe Brackets, with a couple dozen commits that consist of little more than changing names.

This situation is a big mess, but the software side is pretty simple. Arduino SRL hasn't really developed pretty much any software yet.


But I do like the idea of the Arduino Foundation. I do wonder though, is this foundation a response to poor sales due to the market backlash against SRL?

Musto would probably love a non-profit enthusiastically taking on Arduino LLC's role, with little or no expectation to share in the profit from hardware sales. So far, Arduino SRL has been unable to do any significant software development. They've not managed to establish an active forum or other substantial community involvement. If Musto does win every court battle and Arduino LLC is effectively destroyed, he's going to need that hole filled somehow. If they had the ability and interest to do that side, they probably would have already made much more progress. My guess is they never will, and this talk of an "Arduino Foundation" is Musto's desire for an Arduino LLC replacement that allows him to keep all the hardware profits.
 
I'm inclined to agree with much of what you say, but it's important to note that they stopped paying royalties for a reason (open to interpretation and opinion of course) and if I recall reading somewhere it has been suggested that this is because Massimo et al wanted to boot SRL out of the manufacturing chain to go global. An understandable goal. How they came to not be aware of the trademark situation of their own brand internationally absolutely BOGGLES my mind. This is foolish.

So, (picturing oneself as SRL) you own the trademark in the EU, you have a very successful company with years behind you as sole manufacturer of these products, having built a reputation for much higher quality than chinese clones and being quite capable of meeting the annual demand as it is; You pay a royalty (without contractual binding, it would appear) to the association as the gentlemen's agreement plays out despite tensions with the main partner, and then the main partner breaks the agreement to start outsourcing manufacture elsewhere.

So why you would keep your side of the agreement and watch as your business and livelihood begins to flounder, when the gentlemen's agreement was that you were the sole manufacturer?

If one party reneges on the agreement, so will the other.

It would be naive, no, that sounds too innocent, it would foolish and egotistical to assume anything else, and to some extent, I have to say that you would probably get what you deserve.

The question in my mind really is, did SRL stop paying royalties before Massimo started engineering them out of the situation? If not, I don't see SRL as such a clear cut bad guy. If they did, then they would be seen as the instigators to me, and then I will have little sympathy.


That being said I have yet to see what they contribute to the Arduino-verse other than pre-existing open source products and a derivative linino product. Certainly not enough to sustain Arduino level pricing levels.

It feels like two arguing schoolkids both of which have been antagonising each other, they're fighting, the crowds gather and now its just a popularity contest and everyone seems to be cheering for one side without really knowing why they are fighting at all.
 
I just don't buy Musto's story that he's been victimized. Musto's version doesn't involve any mention unilaterally changing the royalty arrangement, which had been printed on the packaging material of every Arduino board SRL made until late 2014.

It all depends who took the first action I suppose. Was it an action, or a reaction on Musto's part?


The unsupported board message is probably the most controversial thing Arduino LLC has done.
Yeah, I can see why they did it, hurtful though it was to the brand.

I really do not see how Arduino LLC has done "really bad stuff". They've certainly been out-maneuvered legally and maybe even financially, at least initially. Musto is clearly very good at this game.

Yeah, I suppose if you were to add up all the bad stuff on either side, Musto's side would definitely tip the scales by a long shot.

I guess this does make them the bad guys in the big scheme of things.

this talk of an "Arduino Foundation" is Musto's desire for an Arduino LLC replacement that allows him to keep all the hardware profits.
I can't see how that would work because without a development contribution noone will pay that amount of money for a board. And if SRL is doing all the development, what the heck is the Arduino Foundation?

So either the selling price drops or the contribution is made to the foundation. I can however see how that might be the game plan for SRL! =D =D
 
Musto may very well kill the golden goose with his approach to things. If he manages to kill Arduino LLC then a critical enabling part of his enrichment (i.e. software development for existing and new boards, a forum staffed by volunteers helping newbies, etc.) may go by the wayside as well.

IMO, his operating position is foolish. Long term, you cannot compete on the basis of manufacturing a commodity product in a high-manufacturing cost environment like Italy. He needs to differentiate his products like Paul did - but that would actually require investment into hardware development, software development, and significant community support in the form of competent, dedicated technical support.

Based on the lack of new products coming out of Arduino SRL or any significant additions to the code base, I'd wager their strategy is to milk their cash cow as long as it will say moo.

All that said, the sheer number of missed opportunities re: running a business suggests that Banzi should be re-allocated to a evangelist position while someone more competent is put in charge. I continue to be amazed by the sheer number of people under employment at Arduino who do not seem to contribute substantially while forum moderators, library specialists, etc. who do a substantial amount of work for free get but the briefest of mention on the site.

In other words, Arduino LLC is not firing on all pistons. If they had a greater focus on pushing the IDE ahead, developing new and exciting boards, etc. then Arduino SRL would quickly be left in the dust. A greater differentiation of Genuino vs. Arduino would also really help the marketplace keep the brands apart and steer business to the LLC side.

So I'd start with simple stuff like a different-colored board (they have the volume!) that is trademarked and then hire some competent people to banish hardware and software cruft. Pay people to provide good technical support in the forums and provide a good feedback conduit back to the folk doing the development work. Iterate designs so that copy-cats have a harder time keeping up, etc.

It never fails to amaze me how low the comparative productivity is re: Arduino LLC vs. Paul. In fact, the best thing that Arduino LLC could likely do is to hire Paul to oversee hardware and software development with mandate to clean ship as needed. For selfish reasons I hope that never happens. :p
 
Last edited:
I think the up-take in IoT and boards that run Javascript, Python, etc., will become more and more appealing to those that don't want near-bare-metal as in Arduino.
And on-line IDEs as these boards have.
 
It never fails to amaze me how low the comparative productivity is re: Arduino LLC vs. Paul. In fact, the best thing that Arduino LLC could likely do is to hire Paul to oversee hardware and software development with mandate to clean ship as needed. For selfish reasons I hope that never happens. :p

me too!

i think they must have accidentally deleted the arduino.cc distributor email account when they killed the SRL accounts, they don't respond to any emails at all!

No replies on the forums either.

I'm just trying to obtain genuino products in the UK.

i might have to contact SEEED, but the writeups and interviews say they are supplying the Chinese market only


if I was arduino.cc, I'd contact EU distributors and offer to exchange existing stock to pinch .org out of the marketplace.
 
In other words, situation normal over at .cc. The only time I've encountered cc management in their forums was when Massimo took me to task for praising the Teensy 3 after the Due was released. Not too professional (albeit understandable).

As I've said before, the cc organization is run like a lifestyle business. A competent board of directors would have reorganized that management team a long time ago. Based on personal experience, taking such a step is not a lot of fun for a BoD either and the chair in particular.
 
Last edited:
About a year ago Arduino (Massimo) and Atmel announced the WiFi 101 Shield, featuring the ATWINC1500 WiFi controller. I recently got my hands on the Atmel Evaluation kit and the 1500 looks like a really nice solution, needing "only" an Arduino library.

The WiFi 101 Shield had been promised for the May/June 2015 timeframe but has now been pulled. I suspect that, like the Arduino Zero, this offering has become a pawn in the LLC vs SRL dispute. A real pity since it runs circles around the original Arduino WiFi Shield.

Does anybody have any news on this?
 
Maybe they're going to jump on the ESP8266 bandwagon?

I recall seeing a video interview of Massimo at the Shenzen Maker Faire, where he mentioned meeting up with the company behind that chip. No real info was given, and I've had very little contact with the Arduino folks since the San Mateo Maker Faire in May, so that video is all I know.
 
I'm not quite up to date in terms of the ESP8266. A major annoyance (at least for me) is the serial port, and the modem commands.
A terminal emulation and a parser is needed. I have a solution, but it bothers me anyway.
An I2C or SPI interface would be much easier to handle.
 
I'm not quite up to date in terms of the ESP8266. A major annoyance (at least for me) is the serial port, and the modem commands.
A terminal emulation and a parser is needed. I have a solution, but it bothers me anyway.
An I2C or SPI interface would be much easier to handle.

I really need to start playing around with my 8266. This may or may not relate, something I came across the other day https://github.com/beckdac/ESP8266-transparent-bridge
 
Hint: If you planning downloads or such, choose aESP8266-board with GPIO13 available! (needed for hardware-handshake) - or choose slow baudrates.
 
Last edited:
Particle.io (photon ARM board) started with T.I.'s CC3xxx WiFi module. It was crummy, as many others have said, to include the 2nd generation of it.
So Particle.io went to the Broadcom OEM WiFi module. Very professional. Don't know the price.
ESP8266 has its place in hack-land.
 
I don't get the fascination with these awkward, bulky, under-powered, over-priced, gratuitously incompatible drama generator boards.

I do get the value of the software. The Arduino software libraries are surprisingly good for getting beginners started and mostly staying out-of-the-way even though the quality is a bit 'sketchy' at times and the IDE is almost like a student project. The software has been held back for as long as I can remember by just barely good enough quality and astonishing decision paralysis.

If both Arduino companies imploded, after the dust settled, wouldn't we be better off? Seems like a large part of the dysfunctional interaction comes straight from the folks vying for the right to call their hardware 'genuine' or 'official'. It would be great to see a community fork that can evolved more rapidly and more sensibly. Teensyduino is almost this already, but the portability story to non-PJRC hardware still involves begging for patches to be accepted.

Am I dreaming of cooking the goose that laid the golden egg?
 
I think Lady Ada is trying to not take sides. Good business move, bad PR move.

Not sure I agree. Seems to me that her body language indicated that she was conflicted selling the stuff and only put it out there because she had placed the order a long time ago. If my impression of Mr. Musto is correct, then he'd only be too happy to sell the boards to her. Even if she's become a competitor in the U.S.

As for the two Arduino orgs managing to kill each other off, I'd argue that something likely would emerge from the dust like a nuclear grade cockroach. The user community is pretty committed... As good as the software is to get people going, it could be a heck of a lot better if only they committed more time and resources to support those who write the very libraries that LLC and ORG rely on to make their boards accessible.
 
Last edited:
Paul,
And then don't forget the blatant copying/theft of the Xerox PARC GUI desktop environment that Apple stole to create their GUI desktop.
--- bill

OT warning.

There I would have to disagree. I was working on still another project to create a GUI/WYSIWYG based system in that same era (skunk works project for a major word processor company at the time). We took some inspiration from the various Xerox PARC efforts, but we were inventing our own system and solving our own problems, with some decisions similar to Xerox and some different. Then Apple came out with the Lisa, and later the first Mac. Being deep in our own process, we could pretty clearly see that they were (in the big picture) doing the same thing we were - combining inspiration from PARC with our own divergent concepts, and creating a different system from scratch with nary a bit of source code in common, with a number of decisions which were different from PARC and from ours. We were hoping to have the best approach of course - but had a lot of respect for the different tradeoffs that others had made, the different paths they had taken.

From the trenches, the popular and conventional meme that Apple "stole" something from PARC is just superficial journalism which later became entrenched dogma and a morality play. It doesn't hold that much water if you look more deeply. Of course EVERY new system borrows inspiration from others - the Teensy could be said to have "stolen" from the Arduino Pro Micro or other DIP-based uC boards, given a sufficiently shallow overview. But then you'd miss the real innovation that Paul has put into it. And (as a would-have-been competitor to both Xerox and Apple), it was obvious to us at the time that Apple DID put a lot of their own innovation into their product. Some of it could perhaps have suggested ideas for our project, but much of their innovation consisted of following a different path after diverging in some of their earlier decisions. Anybody spending more than a few weeks studying both PARC's Star and the Apple Lisa in detail would see how they were different creations, with different tradeoffs from each other (and we could see, also different from our project). But the journalists just saw "looks similar, must be simple theft", which is a great narrative hook, but as I say, too shallow for an engineer to accept.

And by the way, the truly uncredited geniuses were the various LISP machines of the same era - also pioneering a GUI, mouse etc at the same time but separate from Xerox PARC. Few people know about them, because they didn't get the (superficial) popular press treatment, but they were well known and served as additional inspiration to the academics and commercial efforts of that era. PARC was not alone. There was some brilliant work done on the East Coast in the brand new GUI field, and those too were among the roots of the evolving GUI ecosystem of the time.

And of course, later Microsoft came out with their own family of GUI interfaces - once again, inspired by others, but with their own innovations. The only thing I really faulted them for was choosing a generic and widely used word as their trademark; annoying. (Likewise, say, IBM's "Personal Computer"). But Windows started from scratch, inspired by but different from anything already on the market.

Our own GUI system (from the word processing company I worked for them) never made it to market, for a variety of reasons unrelated to the technology per se. So I know that some of our own innovations (like, say, the proportional sized scroll bar tab that gives you an idea how much of a document is visible) were independently reinvented later by others, not "stolen" from us. If we had had a product out, some would assume the idea was "stolen". That means that such things were not so hard to re-invent, and being first is sometimes just "bragging rights" rather than a breakthrough nobody else would have come up with and for which one deserves eternal credit. (One Click ordering anybody?)

Anyway - having been immersed in the field during that era (but not affiliated with PARC, Apple, Microsoft nor the LISP machines), I would strongly dispute the common idea that Apple "stole" their design from PARC. They took inspiration, did their own design of a related concept with different tradeoffs, and did an overall excellent job of it.

Make no mistake, I would give a lot of credit to PARC and the LISP machine folks for their inspiring achievements! They deserve respect for their pioneering work. It certainly got us thinking, even if we took it different directions. But I'd also give some credit to Apple and even (sigh) Microsoft as well. It's time to let the oversimplied "theft" narrative go. NONE of the several GUI systems I've mentioned were "clones" of one another, each was a different attempt to create a mouse/graphical screen/icon GUI concept which was self-consistent and balanced power and simplicity. The ones that are still around was determined partly by marketing etc - but also partly by the technical skill and innovation "value added" to the very general shared concept of a GUI.

/OT
 
Last edited:
the Teensy could be said to have "stolen" from the Arduino Pro Micro or other DIP-based uC boards, given a sufficiently shallow overview.

As a matter of old history, Teensy 2.0 was released in mid-2009 (as soon as the 32u4 chip became available through distributors), after Teensy 1.0 had been shipping since late 2008. Teensyduino began supporting Arduino usage with native USB serial in early 2009 and added USB keyboard and mouse support in the summer of 2009. Certainly by late 2009, Teensy 2.0 supported all the features Leonardo does. USB MIDI and RawHID were added in 2010, and I personally ported nearly all widely used Arduino libraries to the 32u4 chip in 2010 & 2011.

Arduino Leonardo was announced in Sept 2011 and began shipping in May 2012. Adafruit released a "breakout" board with various (very buggy) bootloaders in late 2011 and Sparkfun followed suit a few months later in early 2012 with "Pro Micro" (using Arduino's buggy pre-release bootloader code). Both replaced those early & buggy bootloaders with Arduino's final version shortly after Arduino released their source in September 2012. Both companies published ISP-based flashing instructions and swapped numerous boards for customers unable to ISP-flash their board with Arduino's final Leonardo bootloader.

The non-beta Leonardo and Pro Micro boards began in 2012, nearly 4 years after PJRC had been shipping Teensy and more than 3 years after Teensy 2.0 had been shipping with the same 32u4 chip and good quality software support in Teensuduino!

I can assure you PJRC does not have a time machine capable of traveling 3 years into the future to copy or "steal" other boards & software.
 
Last edited:
PJRC does not have a time machine capable of traveling 3 years into the future to copy or "steal" other boards & software.

A great way to cover your tracks Paul. Build a time machine - create something world changing - then travel back once more and destroy your own time machine (so you can honestly say "PJRC does not have a time machine" ) - then forge ahead back through time fostering your own creation from a safe distance - getting mysterious packages in the mail every so often when it is time to release a new product - about which you state 'not prepared to share details yet' . . . because you haven't opened the package yet.
 
I don't get the fascination with these awkward, bulky, under-powered, over-priced, gratuitously incompatible drama generator boards.

Ahh, they aren't completely off base with those boards. Although I haven't used those particular chips, nor really looked into them, I have used a number of Silicon Labs chips with built-in debuggers, and let me tell you, when I mess around with Arduinos or (sorry Paul) Teensy 3.1, I really miss having a REAL debugger. Visual Micro helps a little, and allows me to get away from the horrible slow Arduino IDE, but it just is not the same as a true line-by-line step or step over function with real breakpoints in a high level language.
 
Ahh, they aren't completely off base with those boards. Although I haven't used those particular chips, nor really looked into them, I have used a number of Silicon Labs chips with built-in debuggers, and let me tell you, when I mess around with Arduinos or (sorry Paul) Teensy 3.1, I really miss having a REAL debugger. Visual Micro helps a little, and allows me to get away from the horrible slow Arduino IDE, but it just is not the same as a true line-by-line step or step over function with real breakpoints in a high level language.

Always consider the balance that a developer has to strike between maximum performance and appealing to the target market. Getting people to code in the first place is a pretty amazing achievement. Now you are asking them to also learn real debugging (which would be immensely helpful to hunt down bugs)... not saying it can be done but Arduino has always prided itself on making stuff accessible, easy and so on.
 
Just to pull back on topic (Although this conversation is fascinating!), it's been 9 months since the announcement and still there is no availability of genuino products in the UK.

A human female can gestate a child in that time.

_sigh_

Combined with all the cancelled maker faires, I'm getting the feeling noone at Arduino gives two hoots about the UK market. Or should I say European market? I don't know. I just know Maplin (UK's radio shack) is full of .ORG retail products, and shouldn't be.

EDIT:
There's movement!

https://shop.pimoroni.com/collections/arduino-microcontrollers

Pimoroni have them listed as coming soon. Interesting......
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top