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Thread: Arduino.org

  1. #26
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    But... if you look at the professional IDEs, most don't address more than Windows and less so, Macs. Due to user base size vs. cost and staff size to sustain more than 1 or 2 baselines. Practical realities.

  2. #27
    Senior Member+ Frank B's Avatar
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    gdb is available for windows too

  3. #28
    Senior Member PaulStoffregen's Avatar
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    I am reading all these comments and taking note of all suggestions and feedback. Again, I want to emphasize that I can't discuss debug details at this time. Please don't mistake my silence for disinterest.

  4. #29
    Senior Member Constantin's Avatar
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    stevech, if you don't mind sharing, which hardware do you like to use and what software? I recently started embedxCode and like it but have been hamstrung a couple of times by its much more professional setup requirements. I've done some more reading re: debuggers and I hope I do a better job of getting the benefit now.

    However, I am already somewhat flummoxed by the xCode environment and it's not clear to me how it features a full-blown debugging option. When I asked about it, I got the following reply: "*embedXcode is flexible enough to use any tool-chain and programmer/debugger, provided the corresponding makefiles are developed."

    That answer works for a CS graduate, but I now need to understand the meaning of tool-chains, makefiles, and so on. Has anyone here used a debugger with EmbedxCode?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantin View Post
    stevech, if you don't mind sharing, which hardware do you like to use and what software? I recently started embedxCode and like it but have been hamstrung a couple of times by its much more professional setup requirements. I've done some more reading re: debuggers and I hope I do a better job of getting the benefit now.

    However, I am already somewhat flummoxed by the xCode environment and it's not clear to me how it features a full-blown debugging option. When I asked about it, I got the following reply: "*embedXcode is flexible enough to use any tool-chain and programmer/debugger, provided the corresponding makefiles are developed."

    That answer works for a CS graduate, but I now need to understand the meaning of tool-chains, makefiles, and so on. Has anyone here used a debugger with EmbedxCode?
    please PM.
    For my professional work I use windows-based development tools simply because there are so many more available than for other platforms. But mostly, I'm an IDE/tool user not a tool maker. The time I spend struggling with tools is non-billable, non-productive.
    For avocational projects, I fiddle with this and that - like Teensy, RPi and Linux. My first decade of working was with Unix and SUN OS, and I have that to thank for a good baseline. I don't mess with C# or Objective C as they're proprietary. I keep thinking about spending a few bucks on a Mac-mini to be able to use BSD/OSX. Not sure why, though.

  6. #31
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    Have a bag full of those yellow boards in the 'regret drawer'. While the idea of a plug together protoyping system has merit it has to be paired with some serious online resources to make the cost seem sensible against a bread board. Last time I checked the wiki pages didn't have define code to use the parts, and sometimes didn't even have the right pins listed. And checking today the Wiki has been removed completely.

    As was noted in a post above, even the best designed hardware will die without a community to support it, and that means not screwing around your early adopters. And actually designing it right in the first place of course.

    For prototyping beyond 'buy an Arduino shield' I think the team that was trying to kickstart a software package that would take your selected hardware and produce a PCB schematic and relevant Arduino setup code were onto something, but the resources to actually make that a fully useable tool are substantial and beyond what they got.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Constantin's Avatar
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    Not sure how smart maker is related to the current conflict other than Dimitri claiming a very tenuous relationship with the factory. Ie Hiring two former workers from a supplier to the factory is not the same as actually producing for it. Oh, and the issue of trademark infringement.

    In the case of smart maker, the trademark conflict was clear cut. Based on the angry comments over at kickstarter, it appears that a very large number of people were taken for a serious ride by smart maker. It's a significant blemish for kickstarter not only to have enabled this alleged scam but also how little they did to address the underlying issues.

    Stevech, apologies for putting you on the spot re IDE and debugger preferences, I'm simply trying to understand what tools people like so I have a better chance of making a good decision should I ever go down that path. I will PM you.

  8. #33
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    Ok, With all of this going on, whom do I rely on .cc or .org?

  9. #34
    Senior Member+ MichaelMeissner's Avatar
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    Arduino.cc is the original group, and the place to download Arduino 1.6.1 or 1.0.6 so you can install teensydunio. A quick scan of Arduino.org shows that they have 1.0.6.2 and 1.5.8.3. I dunno whether the 1.0.6.2 can be used with Teensydunio. A quick scan of arduino.com shows that the domain was grabbed by a tee shirt vendor.

  10. #35
    Senior Member PaulStoffregen's Avatar
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    My position is Arduino.cc is the real Arduino.

    Every indication so far points to Arduino.org being run solely by Federico Musto, after he bought out Martino's manufacturing business. Perhaps more info will come to light as the court cases proceed, or maybe as journalists or bloggers find and publish more info, but this is the best info available (at least to me) today.

    I talked with Federico Musto in person nearly 2 years ago at the San Mateo Maker Faire. He did not make a good impression with me.

    I've also met Massimo Banzi, Tom Igoe, David Cuartielles and David Mellis in person multiple times, and I've worked with them online over the last several years in contributing to Arduino. My impression is they are good, honest people. My opinion is they, and also Cristian Maglie and Federico Fissore are the people really behind Arduino.

    Of course this is just my opinion, based mostly on my impressions of the people involved, most of whom I'm personally met at least once.

  11. #36
    It's sad how all this drama will (and probably has already, before it got public) hinder development,moral and innovation.

  12. #37
    Senior Member PaulStoffregen's Avatar
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    It is sad in so many ways, and it has the possibility of becoming terribly sad if the victor is decided not by merit but by who runs out of money first.

    However, some early indications seem to be actually spurring development effort.

  13. #38
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    TY for the response. I figured the .cc is the place to go to since more activity..

    Wayne

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulStoffregen View Post
    It is sad in so many ways, and it has the possibility of becoming terribly sad if the victor is decided not by merit but by who runs out of money first.
    capitalism can cruel.
    That said, it isn't necessarily a fair fight.
    The issue over logos and trademarks, product names is a big and important issue that needs to be resolved.
    Unfortunately, from what I can tell it isn't so cut and dry given the sloppiness of how the "business" was run
    early on.

    I also agree that "Arduino LLC" is the "real" Arduino company/organization.

    Just my guess/assumption but it appears that lots of things that should be done in a typical startup business were not initially done by Arduino LLC, employment contracts, Intellectual Property agreements, etc.
    So there seems to be many things open to dispute.

    Even the dates used to resolve the disputes may be hard to get a grip on.

    For example, you would think that since Arduino LLC owns the USA word mark for "Arduino" and the "infinity" logo that they could use that to go to the registrar and claim arduino.org to shut it down.
    However, arduino.org was created prior to the registration of the Arduino LLC "Arduino" word mark and that is what the registrar dispute process will use.

    Also, the filing of the Arduino LLC "Arduino" word mark itself was poorly handled. The mark was filed, comments came back and then Arduino LLC never bothered to follow up and the time expired after a year or so and the mark was tagged abandoned (essentially denied).
    Then through some additional re-filings they revived it and finally managed to get it.
    So the dates of these marks now get tricky, particularly since the mark was already being used for years
    in many countries so now you not only have to determine priority dates but also what countries
    rules to apply.

    Not only that but there are too many things "Arduino" i.e. there are many different things all called "Arduino".
    The current registered Arduino LLC "Arduino" USA "ARDUINO" word mark was very specific as to what the mark covered:
    Goods & Services: "ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT BOARDS"

    This is an actual registered mark: #3931675
    filed april 7, 2010, claiming a priority use date of: FIRST USE: 20050921. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20051015
    with a publication for opposition date of june 8, 2010
    with a registration date of March 15, 2011
    The kicker is that it only applies to circuit boards, therefore its use for any else, like s/w
    would not be covered.

    Also, from my memory they originally filed this back in 2009, but then never bothered
    to follow up on it and let the originally filing lapse in late 2009.

    Arduino LLC also has a trademark for the "infinity" logo (the infinty with "ARDUINO" below it)
    filed october 4, 2010, claming a priority use date of: FIRST USE: 20100926. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20100926
    with a publication for opposition date of Jan 3, 2012
    with a registration date of March 20, 2012.

    Roll forward, and now there are some new "ARDUINO" USA wordmark filings:

    ARDUINO S.R.L filed a USA wordmark for "ARDUINO"
    Filed on Sept 19, 2014 with a priority use date: FIRST USE: 20050921. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20051031
    has not been published for opposition yet,
    obviously has not registered.
    Goods & Services usage:
    "Peripheral devices (computer); stand alone general purpose micro controller boards used for calculation and interface to low voltage electronic components, electromechanical components and electronic systems like personal computers, modems and wireless devices"


    Arduino LLC filed a USA wordmark for "ARDUINO"
    Filed on October 10, 2014 with a priority use date of: (NONE specified)
    has not been published for opposition yet,
    obviously has not registered.
    Goods & Services usage:
    3D printers; computer hardware; microcontrollers; circuit boards; Open-source wearable electronic circuit boards; computer hardware subassemblies for assembling custom electrical and electronic devices; wireless transmitters and receivers; LED circuit boards; personal electronic devices, namely, open-source wearable computer; computer software development tools; computer hardware kits for making electronic projects consisting of cables, wires, resistors, push buttons, temperature sensors, tilt sensors, LEDs, servo motors, piezoelectric sound components, capacitors, transistors, electric resistors, batteries and electronic connectors hardware and circuit boards for recording, organizing, transmitting, manipulating, reviewing, and receiving text, data, images and audio files
    online retail store services
    education services
    design and development of computer hardware and software; consulting services in the field of electronics and computer hardware


    Arduino LLC filed a USA word mark for "ARDUINO YUN"
    Filed on sept 11, 2014 with a priority use date of: FIRST USE: 20130900. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20130900
    (none of my calendars have a 0 of january.....)
    publish for opposition date: April 14, 2015
    obviously has not registered.
    Goods & Services usage: Circuit boards; Computer hardware; Microcontrollers

    Arduino LLC filed a USA word mark for "ARDUINO ZERO"
    Filed on Feb 5, 2015 with a priority use date of: (non specified)
    has not been published for opposition yet,
    obviously has not registered.
    Goods & Services usage: Circuit boards



    So it looks like the "can't we all just get along days" are over, and now there is a giant pissing match going on for "ARDUINO" word marks.
    The existing Arduino LLC mark was way too narrow, Then Arduino SRL came in and filed a broader one
    in late 2014 but is claiming the same priority dates as the existing Arduino LLC dates.
    Then just a bit after the Arduino SRL filing, Arduino LLC filed a word mark for "ARDUINO" with
    every single use could imagine.

    For some date history:
    October 26, 2005 Arduino LLC creates arduino.cc
    April 7, 2009 Arduino LLC files for a "Arduino" word mark for "circuit boards"
    In late 2009, Arduino LLC fails to follow up on word mark and lets it expire. (december from my memory - USPTO doesn't currently report this)
    January 17 2010 Smart/Arduino SRL creates arduino.org
    Sometime in 2010, Arduino LLC re-files "ARDUINO" word mark to revive it (USPTO doesn't currently report this - but shows original date from 2009)
    June 8, 2010 Arduino LLC "ARDUINO" word mark published for opposition
    March 15, 2011 Arduino LLC granted registered word mark for "ARDUINO" for use in goods & services for "ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT BOARDS"
    Sept 19, 2014, Arduino SRL files for "ARDUINO" word mark (broader but different from the existing Arduino LLC word mark).
    October 10, 2014, Arduino LLC files for "ARDUINO" word mark (broader than original word mark but overlaps just filed Arduino SRL word mark)


    Not sure how all this will shake out.
    One possible odd scenario is that Arduino SRL gets their "ARDUINO" wordmark and the new "ARDUINO" wordmark Arduino LLC
    just filed is rejected because it overlaps the Arduino SRL mark.

    I'm sure lawyers are currently involved.
    It is very messy and will likely span laws of multiple countries.

    --- bill

  15. #40
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    So far, Raspberry Pi, a not-for-profit, seems like it can avoid the debacle of being rooted in open source/community but wanting now to take it private.

    Are the Arduino founders trying to have their cake and eat it too?

  16. #41
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    And now Massimo tells his side of the saga
    http://makezine.com/2015/03/19/massi...g-for-arduino/

  17. #42
    Senior Member PaulStoffregen's Avatar
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    It case anyone's still wondering, I consider Arduino.cc to be the real Arduino.

    Since releasing Teensy-LC and Teensyduino 1.21, I've taken a few days to make a couple fairly substantial contributions to Arduino.cc.

    https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/pull/2792

    https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/pull/2776

    Since I began Teensy's support for using Arduino in early 2009, I've always tried to spend a portion of PJRC's development time on contributing code and features back to Arduino. Many things have been contributed over the years.

    I believe Arduino.cc is the real, honest Arduino project and I intend to keep collaborating with them.

  18. #43
    I think Paul is right, reading the story from Massimo Banzi it's obviously one side but it's very hard to see how Martino's side can have an innocent explanation for the way they have and are behaving. I can see that Martino might feel hard done by and might feel he is being squeezed out of something he helped create (he is credited with hardware design as well as handling manufacturing). In that situation one must accept the majority verdict. He would still own 20% of Arduino LLC.

    But taking the Arduino trademark for his personal use, and blatant copying of the arduino.cc website, really not any ethical way to behave. It all points to arduino.cc having the moral right, especially if they have been trying to negotiate with Martino and come to a resolution for over a year.

    Legally, it might not be so clear. It's conceivable arduino.org is granted all (or partial right depending on country) to Arduino trademark, if they can establish prior use. I think part of the laxity on Arduino.cc part is they really wanted to get a reasonable agreement with Martino. Money wise, arduino.org seems to hold the cards, as they are getting ongoing revenue from hardware sales and have existing relationships in distribution channels. Notably, arduino.cc are out of stock on all but one boards. Meanwhile Adafruit may be selling the arduino.org version of Arduino Zero.

    I am not sure how we support arduino.cc and not arduino.org, except by buying arduino.cc merchandise. I think that arduino.cc could (and perhaps should) mobilise the community to help them out. I really can't see Arduino doing well as an open source project in the hands of arduino.org.

  19. #44
    Senior Member PaulStoffregen's Avatar
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    It's been reported elsewhere that Federico Musto fully bought out Martino about a year ago.

  20. #45
    Senior Member PaulStoffregen's Avatar
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    If you watch Adafruit's "ask an engineer" video from last night, they talked about Zero while very carefully & awkwardly avoiding saying anything about the conflict. Phil starts out saying "Well, this is going to cause some problems..." at 37:59 and Limor says "we had the order booked already, so it's what it is"

    https://youtu.be/eQ1lHWwdXYA?t=37m59s

    You can also hear them talk about Teensy-LC, just before Arduino Zero, but sadly they didn't prepare much on tech details, other than knowing it has the 5V buffer for NeoPixel LEDs.

  21. #46
    Senior Member+ defragster's Avatar
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    Paul - he's the 6th Arduino member - like the 5th Beetle .... if you love Teensy you'll love Teensy LC . . .

    @19:35 - Arduino logo on screen - Arduino News . . . "you have to say like ARDUINO . CC"
    Last edited by defragster; 03-20-2015 at 03:13 AM.

  22. #47
    Senior Member+ defragster's Avatar
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    Speaking of Debuggers and Zero - the Lady Ada vid showed a custom debug chip on the Zero as well as a second pin set by the MCU she waved her finger over saying 'debug here too'. This would mean some debug infrastructure in the IDE - except that is the '.org' made part? How will that work out? Was the .cc team on the Zero design and integration into the 1.6.x.cc or will it be .org supported only?

    Atmel’s Embedded Debugger (EDBG), integrated in the board, provides a full debug interface with no need for additional hardware, making debugging much easier. EDBG additionally supports a virtual COM port for device programming and traditional Arduino boot loader functionality uses.
    The Specs for the Zero put it between the LC and the 3.1 for RAM/EEprom at the same 48mhz as LC with an 'Atmel' M0. And at only $55 you couldn't even get Two LC's and Two 3.1's for that price - you'd have to settle for one LC and two 3.1's, or maybe 3*LC's and 1*3.1.

  23. #48
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    Atmel previously-proprietary debug chip. She said it was for debugging the aux chip, not the ARM. There's a JTAG/SWD port too.
    Very confusing.

    It's an Arduino-alike only in form factor. But that's what catches the eye of many.

    Probably too complex for the intended Arduino audience.

  24. #49
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    The Adafruit intro for the LC was wonderfully vague for anybody who didn't already know what the LC was, will be interesting to see what the Sparkfun new products video does. Though they have been all professional lately and haven't built something daft out of the new products in a while.

    Have been wondering how a proper debug interface would work with the Arduino IDE given it's text editor roots. Will be interesting to see how the dust settles.

  25. #50
    It looks like Arduino LLC are pretty much toast, if Arduino SRL has been selling through distributors for over a year without Arduino LLC getting any royalties. That includes Adafruit, who seem happy to support arduino.org ("it's just business").

    It is slightly surprising to me that so few people seem to care. I perhaps expect that from other companies who are not bothered where they get their stock from, but I suppose after the Makerbot saga people are somewhat resigned to business taking precedent over ethics.

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