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Thread: Is there a market for a Teensy 3.1 48 pin ARM stamp?

  1. #201
    Senior Member defragster's Avatar
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    Cool, What's the mapping? 7 and 7 on the ends from?

  2. #202
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    That is a very nice idea indeed!

  3. #203
    Senior Member Frank B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by defragster View Post
    Cool, What's the mapping? 7 and 7 on the ends from?
    Klick on this picture:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #204
    Senior Member defragster's Avatar
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    That explains why I thought I saw GND and 3V traces going from the T3_1 end pins to the new pins! And for the limits of routing why no linear pattern showed up.

    I wonder what Onehorse thinks of this? I have one of his motion boards that solder in under where your void is cut and it is cool.

  5. #205
    Senior Member Frank B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by defragster View Post
    That explains why I thought I saw GND and 3V traces going from the T3_1 end pins to the new pins! And for the limits of routing why no linear pattern showed up.
    Only to have ascending numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by defragster View Post
    I wonder what Onehorse thinks of this? I have one of his motion boards that solder in under where your void is cut and it is cool.
    Maybe he wants to sell it ?

  6. #206
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    we now need an adapter board to be able to use this on a breadboard.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
    we now need an adapter board to be able to use this on a breadboard.
    Like the one 20 posts back on this thread????

  8. #208
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    Red face

    WOW! With a topic on this board, with over 10,000 views, PJRC should re-think their marketing strategies for future products!

    First, don't release a product without bread board capabilities. Remember the dweeb who offset the Arduino headers so the board could not be bread boarded?

    Second, allow easy and inexpensive access to ALL ARM GPIO.

    Third, if "Teensy" does not fit your future product(s) names just change the name! You are not tied down forever using the Teensy name for a new micro controller stamp.

    Forth, PJRC being a commercial enterprise which makes money selling products, make sure your software is 100% complete before releasing future products to the public.

    Fifth, listen to your customers wishes and have an "open" mind. With over 10,000 views, your customers are telling you that just maybe, for a few dollars more, have a Teensy 3.1 with a longer form factor so all GPIO can be easily accessible. Fortunately, HWGuy provided an easy and inexpensive solution.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A bit of humor ...
    This topic should close because there is a definite solution. On the other hand - it cannot close until the "fat lady sings" or "topper" again needs to provide another "off the wall" comment to raise his board forum status count.

  9. #209
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    Probably half of those views are from people like me, who just enjoy the drama this thread has created.

    If you want to run a company that way, you're free to - Paul has no obligation to run his company to your standards. Paul can do what he likes with his company, and there's really not much you can do about it. If he wanted to shut it down tomorrow, that's his prerogative.

    BTW, that dweeb who offset the header pins is probably thankful that he did now - it's served as an odd form of lockdown, instant recognizability, and keeps things meant for arduino tied to arduino.

  10. #210
    Senior Member MichaelMeissner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t3andy View Post
    First, don't release a product without bread board capabilities. Remember the dweeb who offset the Arduino headers so the board could not be bread boarded?
    Yes, the Arduino header offset is a well known problem, and given the popularity of the Arduino, there are now many, many shields that use this.

    It was a mistake in the original build that nobody caught in time, and now it is a standard. You can read one account of it here: http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php/topic,22737.0.html, and scroll down to the 2nd last article on the first page, by 'admin' (actually Massimo Banzi, one of the founders of the Arduino project).

  11. #211
    Senior Member onehorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank B View Post
    Maybe he wants to sell it ?
    I can't sell it when anyone can order them from OSH Park. But I did buy some to use and maybe give away with big orders!

  12. #212
    Senior Member defragster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuShoo View Post
    Probably half of those views are from people like me, who just enjoy the drama this thread has created.
    ... That and hoping to avoid any version of a FAT teensy 24 pins on a side!

    The $2 OSH solutions that popped up show how easy it is - and indeed would have been good for PJRC to release. Paul has a big bag of tricks he counts on skewing his view toward the other experts that hang out here.

    But having PJRC make multiple products and retroactively mod a perfect product when - there is not only perpetually software to work on but a future FPU version with even more capabilities would be a better brought out.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by t3andy View Post
    WOW! With a topic on this board, with over 10,000 views, PJRC should re-think their marketing strategies for future products!
    Really? There are a lot of people who want to know what Paul is going to do next. With a post count of over 200, the active posters alone plus about 50 more of us who are watching this train wreck easily account for 10000 views.

    Fifth, listen to your customers wishes and have an "open" mind. With over 10,000 views, your customers are telling you that just maybe, for a few dollars more, have a Teensy 3.1 with a longer form factor so all GPIO can be easily accessible.
    See, here's the thing: Paul has already been down this path, without your help. We have the Teensy2.0++, which shows us that:
    1. Paul is well aware of the desire and occasional need to have a Teensy with lots of pins
    2. He's willing to put forth the effort to make one, and
    3. He's actually made and sold them, and knows how they sell compared to the 24/28 pin package.

    And what do you want to wager that maybe he actually knows what the ratio of T2 to T2++ sales were, and is actually making a rational decision to spend his time on things that are important to the majority of his customers, instead of just the loudest ones? (Hint: he's essentially said as much in this thread.)

    I've met the guy. He comes off as about as pragmatic as they come, and quite interested and involved in what people are doing with his boards. I feel confident that his business decisions aren't based on blind spots or emotional attachment.

    Steve Jobs famously said something to the effect that if you want to know what your customers REALLY want you don't make the mistake of asking them. You watch what they will actually buy and use, and you can't satisfy everyone. I'm pretty sure he died with more money (and more real success with his products) than the combined life-long earnings of everyone who's ever heard of a "Teensy", and while he was a word-class jerk, nobody can credibly deny that he knew a thing or two about marketing.

    This topic should close because there is a definite solution. On the other hand - it cannot close until the "fat lady sings" or "topper" again needs to provide another "off the wall" comment to raise his board forum status count.
    Pot, meet kettle. I've read most of this thread and that little zing is one of the most hypocritical things I've read in a long time. Why are you making this personal? It doesn't help make your point.

    I may regret dipping my toes into this squabble, but friend (and I don't mean that sarcastically), I think you should step back and consider that not all angles of this issue look the same as it looks from where you are standing. A big part of me would love it if Paul made a 48-pin T3++, but it's probably not the right business decision for him to do that.

  14. #214
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    who are watching this train wreck
    A train wreck in which there is a definite low cost solution provided by HWGUY?

    This topic should close because there is a definite solution. On the other hand - it cannot close until the "fat lady sings" or "topper" again needs to provide another "off the wall" comment to raise his board forum status count.
    Why are you making this personal?
    Your cut and paste left off "A bit of humor ..." and is directed to "topper" who does his best to hi-jack any topic for his own entertainment.

    See, here's the thing: Paul has already been down this path, without your help. We have the Teensy2.0++, which shows us that:
    1.Paul is well aware of the desire and occasional need to have a Teensy with lots of pins
    2.He's willing to put forth the effort to make one, and
    3.He's actually made and sold them, and knows how they sell compared to the 24/28 pin package.
    You can read Paul's mind?
    Last edited by t3andy; 08-28-2015 at 12:09 AM. Reason: correction

  15. #215
    Senior Member defragster's Avatar
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    ... read Paul's mind?
    Only as far as his words and actions go: https://forum.pjrc.com/threads/28835...ll=1#post74873

  16. #216
    Senior Member Constantin's Avatar
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    Bottom line, there are multiple, inexpensive ways to pull out all 48 pins on the teensy 3.d series for those that need to. Whether it's a long board so it can be bread boarded or something more compact like the submissions just a ways up, all pins can be brought out with relatively little trouble. Paul hit it right on the head, ie the user community has been able to supply the 'solution' to this so-called problem.

    These boards and the OSH park links to their production details are excellent future additions for the coming wiki. Between the castellated edges and so on, they are super easy to implement. So a big thank you to everyone that has submitted something that other users can build on. I'm still negotiating with work re this topic, a source of frustration for sure but I hope to prevail.

  17. #217
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    Wow! 11,000 views. If you listen to those who probably flunked basic math 101 in school, this view count turns out to be only 250 views! On the other hand, just maybe, there is a keen interest for a different Teensy PCB form factor which allows full access of ALL GPIO.

  18. #218
    Senior Member PaulStoffregen's Avatar
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    The view count is meaningless. Legitimate search engines and spam bots contribute to the view count. Perhaps you may recall the earliest days of this forum, where it bogged down so much under the load from spambots that we had to move it to its own dedicated server! Simply bumping a thread back to the first page of a forum index assures it will get many more "views" by various bots.

    There are good ways to gauge market interest in a product. View count on a long-running, drama-filled forum thread isn't one of them.

    Robin and I feel strongly about freedom of speech. The last thing I want to do is censor non-spam threads, even if they're unpleasant. On the other hand, I believe many people here are tiring of repeated use of inflammatory language, such as "listen to those who probably flunked basic math 101 in school".

    @t3andy - Consider yourself warned, not about the content of your speech, but its derogatory and disrespectful tone towards other forum users. You can keep beating this dead horse, but you must not continue using hostile words (eg "flunked basic math") aimed at other people. We've already allowed far more than most forums would tolerate. If you continue writing insults and ad-hominem attacks towards other forum users, we will apply forum moderation features, even if your aggressive speech is intertwined with otherwise valid arguments.

  19. #219
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    Please remove me from this forum board and with it all projects we contributed. Leave no trace behind!

  20. #220
    Senior Member pictographer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t3andy View Post
    Please remove me from this forum board and with it all projects we contributed. Leave no trace behind!
    There's no "right to be forgotten" here. The material is public domain and only mildly embarrassing. I say: lock the thread from additional posts and leave it as a memorial. Just like Mark Zuckerberg admitted to saying, "They trust me -- dumb fucks", maybe t3andy will succeed someday and this thread will make his customers more careful.

  21. #221
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    Thanks!

    I think Paul earlier was talking about another version, another chip, with more gpio?, and debug stuff?, rather have that, than expanding the one we have.

    On the other hand, arduino uno vs arduino mega, one could consider such a game.
    I'd buy them all.

  22. #222
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    This is a pretty cool idea, can this link:
    https://www.oshpark.com/shared_projects/UI47TwNf

    be added to the Tips and Tricks post?
    https://forum.pjrc.com/threads/25395...ips-and-Tricks

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by nox771 View Post
    This is a pretty cool idea, can this link:
    https://www.oshpark.com/shared_projects/UI47TwNf

    be added to the Tips and Tricks post?
    https://forum.pjrc.com/threads/25395...ips-and-Tricks
    If only with such a nice longboard ... we could have a means to switch the SWD connections between the mini54 and a user device (debugger pod). I'm so accustomed to developing embedded systems with a real debugger. SWD pods are cheap- under $25. The debugger integrated with the IDE is free, low cost (as in VisualGDB), or sophisticated (IAR/Keil), as one chooses.

  24. #224
    Senior Member pictographer's Avatar
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    This would involve either some tricky rework or a redesign of the Teensy PCBs, wouldn't it? Without a board spin, one would have to carefully cut the traces between the MINI54 and the MK20DX and somehow connect them to the longboard. How many signals would need to be cut? Are there even test points exposed for all of them? Were you thinking of extremely fine wires from the pins of the ICs?

    And wouldn't a board redesign make it much cheaper to intercept the communication between the MINI54 and the MK20DX for the purpose of illegal copying of the proprietary PJRC code?

    Paul has said he's working on a debugging solution... That's probably our best hope.

  25. #225
    Senior Member Constantin's Avatar
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    Spot on...

    The Teensy has little to no room left over, even if the planned MKL02 transition potentially opens up 5mm^2 of board space... (whooohoo!)

    The only thing I can think of that would potentially fit yet be useful could be something like the tag-connect fitting, a solution that only requires 6 pads and 3 through-holes to work. But even so, you need to bring 4-6 wires to the surface in the right place, etc. and I can only imagine the groan associated with reworking that spiders nest he created to make the Teensy what it is.

    As for the danger associated with an intercept, I think that exists today, you'd just make it easier - note the sheer number of folk who roll their own solution and hence could bring out the traces no problem. However, I'd wager that the magic is not only in the signals that the Mini54 or the MKL02 send to the MCU, it's all the work that goes into making the bootloader chip work reliably in the first place.

    For me, a hardware based debugger like the Keil seems like a great idea until implementation time comes... i.e. how to integrate the thing with the bootloader chip without the two of them conflicting. I'm unconvinced this can be done but I'm not C++/MCU wizard.

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