Looking for a very large TFT Touchscreen

Status
Not open for further replies.

pjrcbear

Well-known member
Just like the one sold here at PJRC, but much much bigger.

Do these large touch screens exist? The current state of the art for large touchscreens is essentially a large monitor/TV for display and some other technology for touch capture, but I want to bypass the whole HDMI, frame buffer management, and refresh latency issues. My strong requirement is to minimize the latency between the touch capture and the display. I can do that really well with the Teensy + Touchscreen above, but I need a larger scale.

If these touchscreens don't exist, does the technology scale so one could build the same screen but say, 8 ft x 4.5 ft ?

Who are the manufacturers who could build that? (Chinese vendors? Who builds the one from PJRC? I can find them on aliexpress, but I don't know who manufactures them)

Thank you!
 
depends a bit on what your requirmetns are, if you need lots of pixels (like 1280*1024 and above) and need 60fps, then i'd say the teensy 3.6 is even a no-go, as it doesn't have the compute power and features to be able to do that.
the fastest i saw was a STM32F4 doing 60fps with some polygons (http://hackaday.com/2015/06/07/better-vga-on-the-stm32f4/), but at 800*600px, and using a VGA output

so i personally don't get the idea of a screen that big.

and to be honest, i don't think it's profitable at all to go for such a thing.

also, please know that like over 90% of the screens being manufactured are made by samsung. (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Afpey7Eldo)
i also think they do the little 2.8" tft's.

if you really need a large screen and low latency, i wouldn't go for teensy, but a lvds display with an dev board that has an external lvds connector.

not to discourage you, just telling the facts ^^;
 
depends a bit on what your requirmetns are, if you need lots of pixels (like 1280*1024 and above) and need 60fps, then i'd say the teensy 3.6 is even a no-go, as it doesn't have the compute power and features to be able to do that.
the fastest i saw was a STM32F4 doing 60fps with some polygons (http://hackaday.com/2015/06/07/better-vga-on-the-stm32f4/), but at 800*600px, and using a VGA output

so i personally don't get the idea of a screen that big.

and to be honest, i don't think it's profitable at all to go for such a thing.

also, please know that like over 90% of the screens being manufactured are made by samsung. (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Afpey7Eldo)
i also think they do the little 2.8" tft's.

if you really need a large screen and low latency, i wouldn't go for teensy, but a lvds display with an dev board that has an external lvds connector.

not to discourage you, just telling the facts ^^;

Hi pix-os,

Thank you for the info!

I do need very low latency (that's the #1 requirement), but thankfully I don't need to push many pixels: the number of pixels that change from a millisecond to the next is very small (forget polygons or textures - I'm talking raw pixels or small lines), and it's independent from the size of the screen. Whether I use a small screen (like the one I currently have from PJRC) or a bigger one, it's the same amount of pixels that I need to flip...
...and I know that it works well currently with the 2.8" screen from PJRC - I just need a larger area (I don't even need a very high DPI).

I hope this helps clarify the requirement.

Thanks again!
 
The small screens as found on PJRC and elsewhere are a commodity item with multiple sources, key thing in the low cost is that all the parts mass produced and well understood so the factories can swap out ICs, PCBs and panels from whoever is lowest cost this week (and no single supplier can jack the price).

For larger panels things get more complex but fundamentally there is a problem asking a Teensy to drive a 8*4.5 display and that's number of pixels and data throughput. First you need to store all those pixels an a large RAM system, then you need to get those pixels out and onto some form of bus to the display. The SPI used for the small LCDs already hits it's limits in terms of reasonable frame rates in the 240/320 domain so going to several thousand in each direction isn't going to work.

Fundamentally large panels are what HDMI and it's related hardware were built for so getting away from them means re-inventing what it's doing for you.

The tech for what you want to do exists in the form of the smart whiteboards in various flavours (quick google got one claiming six point touch sensing), depending on your project would suggest either using one directly or trying to source the sub elements that fit your needs. None of those are going to have a low price tag though unfortunately, since any large panel display has the reliability problem. If your process can has one in a million pixels fail then most of your 240/320 (76,800) pixel displays will pass quality control. If you are using the same process at the same pixel size (6 per mm) you get to 2 meters by 1.5 meters and 9000*12000 for a total 108 million pixels where you will be throwing most of the production away, even if you accept a couple of dead pixels per panel.
 
The small screens as found on PJRC and elsewhere are a commodity item with multiple sources, key thing in the low cost is that all the parts mass produced and well understood so the factories can swap out ICs, PCBs and panels from whoever is lowest cost this week (and no single supplier can jack the price).

For larger panels things get more complex but fundamentally there is a problem asking a Teensy to drive a 8*4.5 display and that's number of pixels and data throughput. First you need to store all those pixels an a large RAM system, then you need to get those pixels out and onto some form of bus to the display. The SPI used for the small LCDs already hits it's limits in terms of reasonable frame rates in the 240/320 domain so going to several thousand in each direction isn't going to work.

Thank you for your response GremlinWrangler,

I thought that in the case of the PJRC TFT Touchscreen, the "video RAM" (whatever RAM contains the pixel color data) was embedded in the screen itself, not in the Teensy. I don't think the Teensy has a scratchpad that it needs to blit to the screen every so often (but I may be wrong).
There are simple primitives to turn a pixel on or off, but that's pretty much it (I've seen some advanced functions to "blit" some bytes, but I don't really need them).

In my use case, I don't want to compose an image and then blit it, which is the model that many graphics cards have (back buffers, v-sync, flipping, etc). I just want to do the same thing I'm doing right now with the small touchscreen: draw a pixel here and there, at a not so high rate. There is very little throughput needed from the Teensy to the screen in this very specific use case (which I concede is not that common).


Fundamentally large panels are what HDMI and it's related hardware were built for so getting away from them means re-inventing what it's doing for you.

The tech for what you want to do exists in the form of the smart whiteboards in various flavours (quick google got one claiming six point touch sensing), depending on your project would suggest either using one directly or trying to source the sub elements that fit your needs. None of those are going to have a low price tag though unfortunately, since any large panel display has the reliability problem. If your process can has one in a million pixels fail then most of your 240/320 (76,800) pixel displays will pass quality control. If you are using the same process at the same pixel size (6 per mm) you get to 2 meters by 1.5 meters and 9000*12000 for a total 108 million pixels where you will be throwing most of the production away, even if you accept a couple of dead pixels per panel.

Unfortunately all of these "off the shelf" panels and smart boards have too high a latency, because they are based on a certain FPS model driven through HDMI. Even at 60 fps, the latency added is too much.
108M pixels is a lot to get right in one shot indeed. 1920x1080 (2M pixels) is a reasonable resolution to start off with actually.

I'm happy to source the sub elements, as long as they let me interface at a level that lets me flip pixels quickly, without having to render in a back buffer and transmit via HDMI.

Imagine a "scaled up version" of the PJRC TFT Touchscreen, 1920x1080, 8'x4.5', 4 Megabytes of VRAM to hold the display pixel data @ 16 bpp, and same SPI interface to detect a touch and draw a pixel. Other than the pixel density being different (and obvious physical size difference), the processing should be the same... unless I'm missing something?

The Teensy wouldn't need to drive more pixels/second than it currently does with my 2.8" display (and it works well with it).

Does that make sense?

Thanks again!
 
Difficulty is that some where in this system you need a pile of RAM and processing to push thousands of pixels. So the shopping trip here starts with a serious display engine, possibly one intended for a laptops or tablets. The problem is that most people don't want to drive just one pixel at a time so the mass production and published product specs are all about pushing the whole image across. Not trying to shoot this down, but I think you are asking this question in the wrong forum since few of us here work in the domain of big displays and the hardware to drive them. Suggestions would be to look at the people working with Bunnie Huang https://www.bunniestudios.com/ on his laptop or doing things with Android tablets might get better information.

Possible google path may be looking at how on screen displays get onto the monitors, since they will probably being generated by a low horse power micro of some sort and passed to the actual panel controller as modified pixels. Though massageing the search to find such work might be tricky.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3104...n-manipulate-pixels-for-malicious-effect.html
 
if you really need a large screen and low latency, i wouldn't go for teensy, but a lvds display with an dev board that has an external lvds connector.

Anything you'd recommend off the top of your head?

I thought maybe a board like this could work with the Teensy (or maybe any LVDS driver board that can be interfaced easily with the Teensy), but maybe it's simpler to go with a dev board that already has everything set up and ready to hook up with an LVDS display.

I guess at that point the latency will be defined at least by the framerate through the LVDS wires.

How does the small TFT Touchscreen sold by PJRC work? Is it also an LVDS panel?
It seems to me when I issue a drawPixel() command via the ILI/Adafruit library, a command goes through SPI to the TFT board, which interprets it as "set this pixel to this color" and goes off and reflects that into the VRAM. If that's what really happens until then, then I wonder how the pixel is actually physically flipped from that point on. Is the whole VRAM sent to the panel at a specific frame rate too?
My ignorance is showing!

Thanks again!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top