forum changes? can't edit old posts

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I believe the limit is 2 hours.

For years we had no limit, but really should have. Yeah, a time limit for editing means you can't use a post like an editable static page. But how valuable that really is for a forum is questionable, since people who've already seen the message probably won't notice the changes.

There are 2 problems the time limit solves.

1: Spammers have a tactic where they post legitimate-looking questions, then days or weeks later edit them to spam. They often do this on messages meant to boost search results for other sites with links, where their goal is never to be read by real humans but for their message to be seen by the search engine spiders.

2: Some real people would go back and massively edit or delete their messages. In some cases they do this when their problem was solved. In a few cases, they'd get frustrated with the forum or some particular person, or just with the fact their project didn't work. The problem with such editing is this makes the message history really hard to follow for anyone else who later finds the thread by searching. There's a lot of valuable answers buried on this forum for search, and preserving the message history is a goal.
 
about 2 hours. one user went around different threads deleting posts in all threads he posted in because he was “upset” with another individual.
 
For years we had no limit, but really should have. Yeah, a time limit for editing means you can't use a post like an editable static page. But how valuable that really is for a forum is questionable, since people who've already seen the message probably won't notice the changes.

I think there is value to the editable static page. As noted in my earlier post, I update a sticky post on T3.5/3.6 Ethernet beta testing. If I feel the edit is worthy, i'll make a new post to get folks attention, but still link back to the sticky post and update it as well to reflect the new info. So there is one post for the current state of the testing, and not a long chain of posts.

KurtE also noted
I do like the idea of time limits, although it may have some side effects, which may or may not be good. That is for example suppose, one of the senior contributors create a new thread to describe some major library or Teensyduino feature, like i2c_t3t3 or threading or USBHost Joysticks and wish for the first posting in the thread to contain information about the current state of the library/feature, such that they update this post each time they do a major upgrade to that code base... This might now longer work.

I don't know the administrative burden, but granting "Senior Member+" on request to trusted/deserving members would be better than any automatic aging into that privilege. If you wanted to pre-qualify some trusted members, you select those members you invited to be beta testers for K66, LC, or prop shield.
 
Indeed I've often edited old posts when new info comes along - and as '+' I still can. Perhaps '+' can be made '++' and then a middle ground for 'Sr Member' to get '+' elevation to edit. But that is a forum admin issue as far as what is possible. Besides '++' would be cool :)
 
Over the last several days, Robin looked into options for changing editing permissions.

vBulletin jumped the shark somewhere in version 3, and version 4 is filled with tons of complex overlapping features & configuration. It's pretty clear message editing is meant be a universal setting, not something normally assigned to user groups. But there are lots ways to set up special groups & permission, though none are clearly meant for this sort of thing. Even trying would mean going pretty far off the fairly standard forum setup we have now.

I know this is going to sound kinda lame, but we decided making substantial config changes to the forum just isn't worth the risk. There's a very real chance we could end up causing major problems. Sure, a full database restore from the daily backup should in theory be able to cure any problem, perhaps at the loss of 1 day's worth of activity. Changing to a very custom setup could also put us on a path where the message history might not import to Xenforo, which we're still planning to use someday (though 2019 or 2020 time frame is looking more likely than doing a migration this year).

If a forum change does go badly, it could also really suck up a lot of both our limited hours in the day... and I can tell you Robin's time right now is needed for business stuff that keeps Teensy in stock, and I'm hoping to do another round of improvements and long-requested features on the Ethernet library, and maybe also a first attempt at improving the Arduino Ports menu for non-serial modes. So we're taking a pretty conservative low-risk approach to managing the forum, which pretty much means avoiding messing with the rather complex settings & customizations.
 
I think there is value to the editable static page. As noted in my earlier post, I update a sticky post on T3.5/3.6 Ethernet beta testing. If I feel the edit is worthy, i'll make a new post to get folks attention, but still link back to the sticky post and update it as well to reflect the new info. So there is one post for the current state of the testing, and not a long chain of posts.
This sounds like we really need a WIKI (!).
Alternatively, and this may even be better: All important user contributed code, maintain their own GitHub and build-in Wiki, and in the forum is a link to actual code and Wiki. This could even be promoted to PJRC web page noting also the version distributed by Teensyduino).
 
This sounds like we really need a WIKI (!).
Alternatively, and this may even be better: All important user contributed code, maintain their own GitHub and build-in Wiki, and in the forum is a link to actual code and Wiki. This could even be promoted to PJRC web page noting also the version distributed by Teensyduino).

Wiki Indeed - that is what Wiki's are good at - Presenting a best view of content: concise, current, accurate, updated, all in one place and topic searchable, linkable , demonstrable images- editable and controllable and able to be rolled back - lots of things the forum (and the website) is not. And I wouldn't have to edit my own posts ... it would just end up being right. And finding info without having to read the next post or four (pages) - or jump to another thread.
 
How does everyone feel about the Arduino's wiki, both from a wiki features perspective, and how the content has evolved and aged over time?
 
So that is what the "playground" is .... "Welcome to the Arduino Playground, a wiki where all the users of Arduino can contribute and benefit from their collective research. "

That was a loaded question or some other trickery? Looking quickly shows organizing an encyclopedia is easier - at least for Arduino, and that even simple page layout is a work of art to usably present info in a complete way without offsite reference. At least Forum links are fixed points.

Doesn't seem like the helpful easy to use Wiki that was just supposed to appear - suggests it could be a lot of work and responsibility? But as noted if Forum threads can't evolve in post #1 - the Wiki would get filled in over time - but still need order. Part of that could be the Wiki engine as well as the user base?

Lots of wasted cold white space and the left 'frame' index scrolls off - leaving open space and no navigation. First two things I clicked to see a page jumped off-site to user pages. Information on SPI was 'the LED won't work now because SPI owns it...'

Doesn't look as bad on my portrait display as my new black Friday wide screen.

Search is routed through Google - boring - but at least it didn't have ads - except a popup to use Chrome . . .

I'm a horrible organizer I suppose - but that doesn't seem to be what a useful or complete presentation of info should look like - it makes the forum look good - it doesn't have the depth or breadth of info on the forum that a PJRC/Teensy Wiki that could show.

One area on 'Arduino for other Chips' is only AVR variants - except esp8266? So it never got critical mass or broad coverage for non 8 bit Arduino hardware.

The Left pane index was promising but didn't show me anything quickly. I did find 'Stopwatch code' - displays horribly trapped in that narrow pane with comments quickly wrapping/clipping and lots of blank lines. This has better formatting Simon Monk Timer. As does https://playground.arduino.cc/Main/RickRoll - but is just a piece of code - no notes on the piezo hardware.

This from the left pane 'interfacing with hardware' - shows a few subtopics - but is a long stream not links to useful info - but a group of links that go off-site. Another 'Snippets and Sketches' has subgroups - but no anchor link list.

Even a quick port of the PJRC website would offer more usable info. And each Library could prepopulate with a link to the github area on day one and be more technical and usable until it filled in with germane content or forum links for a quick start.

Such a beast could indeed be a PJRC time sink even if created by a magic wand - editors would need to be approved and even then monitored actively for abuse. Though that doesn't happen much on the forum - and it would come with captcha protection and moderator approval to join would be justifiable with forum participation? And ideally perhaps certain core product pages may have to be limited PJRC editing so it could back up the PJRC web page?

Playground had active offsite links I hit - but that ruins the flow and gets ugly if they get stale or are bad links - even to github ...

The idea I had of a Wiki back when was noted as more this - though product and shield based: http://digistump.com/wiki/digispark - that Tiny AVR isn't very active - and newer ESP variant - but it has more a useful presentation of information for as far as it got to explore that more limited product. But it has a nicer than google search? Certainly there has to be a better model than the Playground?

Pages would be more like http://www.instructables.com/ - but they have no indexing or interrelation - though they have a better search - that of course is more like Instagram pictures or something.
 
My 2 cents on a Wiki.

Although the Arduino Playground Wiki is clearly poorly organized and seems chaotic, that doesn't make it useless nor a wasted effort. Rather, it presents an alternative, if not somewhat free form, way of finding useful information that might not be found otherwise. I have found useful information there.

There is a treasure trove of information buried in this forum. I've been a registered member since 2015, but lurked for several years prior to signing up. There's hardly a day goes by that I don't log in and browse new postings, chasing links in hopes of learning new tips and methods. I do this because it's really the only way to expand my knowledge of the Teensy infrastructure.

In my opinion spending a few days (perhaps more) in laying out a 2 or 3 level category hierarchy in hopes that the leaf nodes will be expanded on and populated with useful text and links is a win - win for everyone. For PJRC and it's many supportive forum contributors it may help reduce the repetitive "how do I" and "my Teensy freezes when I unplug USB" questions. But even more importantly it might make Teensies more approachable to people who aren't used to, or willing to, dig quite so deep for information or solutions that aren't visible without reasonable effort.

Of course it takes effort and bandwidth to create and maintain a great Wiki. But in my mind there's still value in having a "good" Wiki which I define as one that helps even a few dozen people to discover and exploit the tremendous potential that Teensies bring to the Arduino culture. Letting a Wiki evolve would be a learning experience for most of us. If it starts to become too unstructured then yes, someone may have to spend some time reorganizing. However, the fact that the Wiki is being updated enough to warrant editing implies that people found it useful.

Paul, I strongly suggest that you once again consider the value of establishing a Wiki, especially one that many can contribute to. I understand that you and Robin don't have infinite bandwidth, but I hope that once established the Wiki may grow due to the efforts of many and not become the time sink that I suspect you fear.

David
 
My 2 cents on a Wiki.
I add 2 Euro cents

The forum is a great platform to be followed continuously. Not all subjects are of interest to me, but following the discussion is always very instructive.
But, searching for specific information, or worse, searching for solutions is a nightmare. Google/Bing is a start but it is only key word driven and floods you with links.
A information consolidation system (call it Wiki) is long overdue.
 
Others noted the utility of a wiki before this thread got started - PJRC-and-Teensy(s)-need-a-Wiki

Still seems like it could work - though as noted it won't be perhaps as self fulfilling and perfect as one might get with a magic wand.

Just found this on another thread -

I'm skeptical a wiki would work. My view on this has changed over time, but this is my current belief.

Or more specifically, I'm pretty sure in the long term, a best case would look much like the Arduino Playground - a vast disorganized collection of unmaintained and out-of-date pages.

...

I don't see that as the 'best case' for a PJRC driven Wiki given the FORUM users - with some roadmap and guidance there is a great deal more material in the FORUM that could be distilled into Wiki articles with much more content and value than I could find expressed in the poorly named Playground - a bad example for a Wiki. What's a good one?
 
As for WIKI being perfect? Probably not. Do many of them have lots of detritus, absolutely.

Obviously it would be great if PJRC had the resources and inclination to be able to come up with a full set of documentation that includes all of the stuff found on the forums... But there is probably a 100 other higher priority things that you need to do with your limited time.

So a WIKI could help. I don't necessarily think everyone should have update capabilities. Maybe you start off with a hand full of people who can update things and see how it works. But I do use some of the WIKIs for some other products like for the UP boards to be able to find the hardware information or current set of supported shields...
 
I believe the limit is 2 hours.

For years we had no limit, but really should have. Yeah, a time limit for editing means you can't use a post like an editable static page. But how valuable that really is for a forum is questionable, since people who've already seen the message probably won't notice the changes.

consequence for not being able to edit mistakes after 2 hours means recopying old posts until all mistakes are found by other users. IMHO this is waste of user attention bandwidth.
 
As for WIKI being perfect? Probably not. Do many of them have lots of detritus, absolutely.

Obviously it would be great if PJRC had the resources and inclination to be able to come up with a full set of documentation that includes all of the stuff found on the forums... But there is probably a 100 other higher priority things that you need to do with your limited time.

So a WIKI could help. I don't necessarily think everyone should have update capabilities. Maybe you start off with a hand full of people who can update things and see how it works. But I do use some of the WIKIs for some other products like for the UP boards to be able to find the hardware information or current set of supported shields...

Have to agree Kurt. My earlier post about the futility of good info on the bad one for Arduino Paul linked wasn't to disparage the need or utility in a Wiki - they can't even make hardware to compete with PJRC - and offer decent software support for it so that they grow into better hardware. Just the need to find and create a good format to have it usefully evolve.

Is this the one you referred to? wiki.up-community.org/Main_Page? It wasn't easy to find that - but it has a decent home page for a starting point! It isn't very deep - yet. But if I heard about UP, that presents a good starting point.

Even if the PJRC Wiki had that much - a MAIN page with general links to main topics of interest or info:
  • Setup { ide and TD install ...
  • Hardware { T_2, T_3x, Audio, ARM .vs. AVR ...
  • Software
  • Audio System Design Tool
  • Manuals and Schematics
  • PJRC.Com
  • Store
  • Forum
  • Blog
  • Distributors
  • Github Sources

And those were fleshed out a bit { even with cross links to PJRC.com, github, forum areas } it would provide useful info quickly and also another way for Search engines to pick up and share Teensy/PJRC info.

After 3 years here I've forgotten much of what I've posted and more of what I've read! I find myself searching for my own posts and in my samples in sketchbook folder to remember stuff, and happy when I commented in a link to the Forum or Github where I found that info when it turns out I need to refer to it or use it months later. A Wiki would be a better way to index and immortalize that.

Now that the Forum is 'post with limited editing' and then 'read only' { not all bad } some of the utility of the find a thread's post #1 and trust it will be lost as curated topical threads are not easily done. Indeed not reading the thread bottom up means you may have bad info.

Typing this thinking of the decent forum poster github samples - it might be handy for PJRC to collect offered open source examples and make a branch of cloned contributions - like those that got the T_3.6 off the ground in the K66 Beta for RNG, RTC, Ethernet, SD. Those could then be linked from the Wiki and would allow unbroken links to them. Things that don't yet or won't make a library perhaps - but demonstrate some feature.
 
I took all the 'printable' text from 'need a wiki' thread to : wordclouds.com/

They gave link to a list sorted by hits ( can do alpha sort too ) of all the words in that file and made a proportionate to hits sized IMAGE of the higher hit words - with some 270 not fitting the display with 1 hit.

Doing that a bit more carefully ( i.e. not after 4 a.m.) might give a quick way to get a wiki index - or key words of interest for meta tagging - after throwing out user names and words like 'post' that repeat. It also showed the LINKS present.

1wordcloud.jpg
 
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